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It is a nice looking solution. How do you get the "undercut" to get "knife edges"?
And it doesn't seem as easy to floss as Motolla's solution?

Conical washers, Nick ...??? You've lost me ...where are the conical washers ?

Nick ...I am not sure as to what post you are referencing there ...always good to use the "quote" facility ...

My mistake. I was referencing your post and John's. It just seems that one of the benefits of Mottola's solution is that one can floss the whole heel with sandpaper without hanger bolts or anything else getting in the way. With the hanger bolts you could only floss each side as if you were using a tenon and changing the neck angle seems harder to my inexperienced eyes. I may have to modify the neck angle as I drew the plan for this guitar! It's all non-standard so I'd like a little extra insurance. I like the idea of inlaying the inserts below the surface to leave enough wood for modification. Like so...





Mottola uses belleville washers, which I found advertised as conical washers, so I just assumed Americans and Brits called them different things. I believe the theory is that they introduce extra insurance against the bolts loosening.

Ahh ...I think I see what you are saying ..and yes...John Killin's pic is deficient in one respect .

Basically ...the end of the heel should have a routered channel in the center to facilitate fine tuning of the neck angle.

sorry Nick ...cross posting ...

The pic I posted of the hardware was my pre neck carve pic.

I didn't use any conical washers. The only hardware I used was what is shown in the original pic I posted. This is my personal guitar so I wasn't worried about it coming lose and me not being able to address it. So far I haven't had any issues and it has been a couple of years. If it had, I might have just added some locktite to the threads before tightening it down.

In the final version I had sort of created a pocket that was deeper than the mating surface of the outer edge of the neck. This isn't the greatest picture, but it shows what I was working with.


My initial sanding was done without the bolts in so it was similar to the Mottola method. After the bolts were in, cut a slot in the paper to clear them. Sort of a U shaped deal. For the final fine tuning of the center line alignment, I did some sanding on a single side with a 1" strip of paper. It took some fine tuning to get it right. Until you glue the neck on, you can remove the hanger bolts as needed.


And while I'm digging through my pictures, here is one of the maple dowel I used under the heel cap.


I found this joint to be easy to use and I'd do it again.

Nick, the neck is relieved with a laminate trimmer so only the two outside strips contact the body. In addition I use a chisel freehand to taper the strips towards the inside and leave about a 1/16" flat edge on the outside thus reducing the contact surface even more - this is where the "knife edge" comes from. This makes it much easier to floss the joint for a proper fit.

You can see I put in a maple strip but I just do it on the table saw and then clean up the slot with a chisel; that way I don't have to worry about keeping dowel stock around which usually isn't dimensioned all that well anyhow. The brass inserts are glued in with thick CA, if I recall. I used to use epoxy but don't waste the time to mix it anymore for that. Glad I saw this thread, in the future I will be going to the inserts Liutaio recommends. I've used enough of the brass furniture inserts that I can see that the metal inserts will work much better. Nothing wrong with hanger bolts, I just prefer using inserts. Using threaded inserts does make it a bit easier to floss.

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"Music is what feelings sound like"

This is how I do it too. Very simple.

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On ukuleles, I use 1/4-20 tee nuts and a countersunk furniture bolt.
It has worked well for me.

Bob

How does it make it easier to floss ...? I used hanger bolts on my (admittedly) one build to date, and I found it no problem whatsoever to floss to the correct neck angle.

Screwfix in the UK do a range including steel inserts

http://www.screwfix.com/search.do?fh_se ... ew_size=20

Cheers, Bob

Right ...cutting to the chase ..the fact is that threading into end grain is anathema to anybody who has an apprentice/journeyman experience of wood machining.

Sure, Bob Taylor uses threaded inserts in his guitars ...does that mean that everybody should follow suit ?

The reason Taylor use threaded inserts in the heel is exactly the same reason why Martin drill parallel holes for their bridgepins ...namely ...they are aware that only a very small percentage of their customers are savvy enough to query their methods ...and doing it the way they have always done it saves a stack of cash.

Think outside the box ...

Thanks, Bob, I saw them, they aren't what I'm looking for.

Really helpful information, John, thanks for that! Decent sized hole to drill in the heel, though, isn't it! I didn't think about the hanger bolts being easily removable, I just thought that once they were in they were in so couldn't see how you cut that step.

I may have sourced the ingredients for Metallo's, I mean Mottola's joint from a very kind OLF user, so I'm in two minds given the hanger bolt recommendations.

Mottola's way is easier for me. If the difference in crack susceptibility is academic, then the self tapping inserts appeal to me more. Surely, if he had any problems with guitars using that hardware, he'd put a note on the page or remove it altogether? He specifically recommends it for Maple end grain, which is exactly what I have.

Steve, Glad the thread was of some use to you! I was wondering how well dowels are dimensioned. I only have access to the locals school's pillar drill and apparently they aren't insured for me to use (or plain don't want me to use) the bandsaw or table saw, so Mottola's joint, straight into the Maple end grain is ideal for me in that I only need ten minutes there to setup and drill two holes.

Is it the risk of cracking during installation rather than in actual use that sways people toward hanger bolts? I'd love to see tests between them, maybe I'll have to do them myself.


Anyway, thanks to all! Everyone here is so helpful!

I thought it would be easier only before I realised the hanger bolts come in and out without any problems.

No bolts to hit - I did say a bit easier

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"Music is what feelings sound like"

http://www.reidsupply.com/sku/STI-125/

These are great inserts and the shipping should be reasonable as the package will be quite small. I got turned on to these by Rick Micheletti and have not seen anything better.

Fred

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I used the type E inserts that Bob linked to from Screwfix in combination with a dowel in the heel, wicked in some CA, no hint of cracking and rock solid! Set it a little below the surface so can route out the recess without worrying about the router bit.

https://shopen.rampa.com/

Germany, not UK.


Regards,



Edzard

I use these with a bit of ca
http://www.memfast.co.uk/shop/vprod4.asp?cat=2250005134

John, what size hanger bolt do you use?

Beth,

I used 1/4" hangar bolts. The machine head part has a 1/4-20 thread. For length, I cut them down to size the fit what I needed.

John

This is my take on this as I use the Mottolla method and find it brilliantly simple. I simply drill and tap some 1/2" whitworth brass bolts 6mm and cut them to about 18mm long. I drill the neck 13/32" and simply tap the neck 1/2" whit. using a sharp tap. Then with a greased 6mm screw inserted full depth in the insert with a nut to lock it. I butter the hole with epoxy then simply screw it in. When the poxy dries remove the screw and hunks yer bobble. I did a test piece trying to pull one out by tightening the screw with a packer, with a lot of force, and I mean a surprising amount, one tends to remove a huge chunk of wood. I believe virtually all the stress on the neck is from handling and the string tension thing is over played as the leverage the strings have is so little most of the load is straight back into the body. I put a 14mm beech dowel right through the heel to help tie it all together and so far "touch wood"

Hi Neil,
My first question is….Is "Hunks your bobble" the same as "Bob's your uncle"? Loved that.
This is a great description, but I'm really visual…any chance you could post a picture of the neck with your bolts installed?
Thanks, Beth

Yes Beth up here in Cumbria we say all sorts of rubbish, fanny's yer aunt, up to the makers nameplate, its all the same basically "there you have it" here's a piccy.

I find it so hard to get over my hang-up that butt joints are as good as mortise and tenon but it must be so much easier and require less tooling. After having spent ages building a tenon and mortise jig copied from a Robbie O'Brien video I'm stupidly reluctant to change.
John, how to you tighten the hanger bolts in?

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